#bitcoin channel featuring gribble, midnightmagic, Diablo-D3, cannon-c, defcon23,

midnightmagic 2017-01-21 21:53:21

They're not painful to purchase. They're easy to purchase.

Diablo-D3 2017-01-21 21:56:23

who were you even responding to

cannon-c 2017-01-21 22:05:53

probaby AllenH earlier message I would presume

defcon23 2017-01-21 22:14:25

;;tlast

gribble 2017-01-21 22:14:26

933.22

defcon23 2017-01-21 22:14:31

hoo

midnightmagic 2017-01-21 22:26:04

lol

midnightmagic 2017-01-21 22:26:11

wrong channel anyway. do it in #bitcoin-pricetalk

midnightmagic 2017-01-21 22:26:12

.

#bitcoin channel featuring midnightmagic, AllenH,

midnightmagic 2017-01-21 19:47:55

AllenH: it's not really hard, you just have to take the time to configure a source.

AllenH 2017-01-21 19:49:04

midnightmagic: Sources appear to be my issue right now- waiting on the transactions to hit my bank. :) And other ways of buying appear confusing/worrying… too bad no one local is doing cash in town.

AllenH 2017-01-21 19:49:26

I should have kept my visa credit card active…. dropped it ages ago as it had high fees. doh.

AllenH 2017-01-21 19:51:12

I guess I just didn't realize the difficulty in buying ahead of time. It's sufficiently difficult that I think this type of thing will always be non-mainstream

AllenH 2017-01-21 19:51:30

And I wonder if we aren't adding a fake worth to the coins by making them actually fairly painful to purchase. LOL

#bitcoin channel featuring GeorgeTorwell, AllenH, yvear, gribble,

GeorgeTorwell 2017-01-21 18:06:56

;;price

gribble 2017-01-21 18:06:56

I do not know about 'price', but I do know about these similar topics: 'pricetalk'

GeorgeTorwell 2017-01-21 18:07:50

;;pricetalk

gribble 2017-01-21 18:07:50

Price talk in #bitcoin is offtopic; please use ##bitcoin (note the TWO hashes) instead.

AllenH 2017-01-21 18:19:57

Finally dipping my toes in to bitcoin- wow I never realized how hard it was to actually buy some to get started!

yvear 2017-01-21 18:38:32

TheButterZone, Thiel is one of those specifically-smart but generally-dumb people

#bitcoin channel featuring gmaxwell, piqure, TheButterZone,

TheButterZone 2017-01-21 17:31:23

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/create doesn't have many petitions up yet, do we want to make a short & sweet one for BTC or cryptocurrencies more generally?

piqure 2017-01-21 17:31:24

^^^ WARNING: any URL may lead directly or indirectly to COIN-STEALING MALWARE! ^^^

gmaxwell 2017-01-21 17:31:46

TheButterZone: perhaps best to not let the whitehouse know that Bitcoin exists for now? :)

TheButterZone 2017-01-21 17:32:44

thiel was on his transition team

gmaxwell 2017-01-21 17:33:31

yea, but thats one person... better to see what the appointments look like.

#bitcoin channel featuring thorie, Pmurt,

thorie 2017-01-21 15:58:55

hi, anyone know where i can find devs interested in new bitcoin projects?

Pmurt 2017-01-21 16:21:13

I keep hearing a lot of talk about the network not being able to do more then 7 transaction per sec? Is this true?

#bitcoin channel featuring gmaxwell,

gmaxwell 2017-01-21 14:46:13

Improve block transfer _at best_ reduces node bandwidth usage by 50%, so it was a nice arguing point for segwit. (though testing shows that the savings is more like 12% https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1377345.0 becuase most usage was actually relay overhead... though we've also reduced that a fair bit since I did that measurement)

gmaxwell 2017-01-21 14:46:41

(50% because all xthin/bip152 do is allow a node to recieve each transaction only once instead of twice (once in relay, once in a block))

gmaxwell 2017-01-21 14:55:46

mryandao: it's my belief that BU didn't intentionally rip off core here without attribution. They worked from Mike's proposal and mike didn't mention the origin. They were unaware of our work or they wouldn't have left in the easily avoided collision vulnerability. (well, were unaware of it for a long time, then unwilling to admit the vulnerablity and fix it, so they still have it)

gmaxwell 2017-01-21 14:57:05

and in our case there is no element of BIP152's design in common with xthin that we hadn't published before long before BU ever touched the subject.

#bitcoin channel featuring grubles, auctus, LBTCseeker, frib, mryandao, nairb, and 6 others.

auctus 2017-01-21 12:49:03

is lightning network in use by anyone yet or still in development/experimental ?

grubles 2017-01-21 12:53:01

it's in-use on testnet

grubles 2017-01-21 12:53:20

but yes, it's still being developed

Tootoot222 2017-01-21 12:55:37

auctus: very much still experimental

Wonderton 2017-01-21 13:19:22

hi

frib 2017-01-21 13:25:48

why is it that bitcoin could never be suitable for microtransactions on a global scale? where is the bottleneck?

Tootoot222 2017-01-21 13:26:25

currently, to do it all on-chain there isn't enough room in a block to do lots of small transactions

gmaxwell 2017-01-21 13:26:56

frib: why are you saying that bitcoin could never be sutiable? that is just _WRONG_.

mryandao 2017-01-21 13:26:57

frib: put simply, the whole network does not need to know if you're just paying for coffee

gmaxwell 2017-01-21 13:27:24

It's like saying that USD could never be used for online payments because it is a piece of cloth and modems cannot transmit cloth.

frib 2017-01-21 13:28:02

Tootoot222, i'm not referring to bitcoin as it is now, but as it could be, decentralized cryptocurrency in general if you like

frib 2017-01-21 13:28:28

gmaxwell, it's not a claim, it's a question, seeing as all of the "experts" have made it as a claim I am trying to understand their reasoning

frib 2017-01-21 13:28:54

mryandao, i'm trying to understnad where the technological bottleneck is, thanks!

gmaxwell 2017-01-21 13:29:18

frib: "seeing as all of the 'experts'" -- uh. Example?

mryandao 2017-01-21 13:30:45

gmaxwell: yesterday i asked if there was a diff summary between xthin and compact blocks

frib 2017-01-21 13:30:46

gmaxwell, did you not see the comments by kanzure in #bitcoin-wizards?

kanzure 2017-01-21 13:30:57

what

mryandao 2017-01-21 13:31:04

as a BU dev alleges that Core plagiarised xthin's implementation

gmaxwell 2017-01-21 13:31:13

frib: you asked a different question there.

gmaxwell 2017-01-21 13:31:27

mryandao: really? Citation? that is really angering. :( Because if anything the opposite is true.

frib 2017-01-21 13:31:32

gmaxwell, I asked what was the bottleneck to high txns per second.

mryandao 2017-01-21 13:31:37

its in a youtube video

mryandao 2017-01-21 13:31:42

would you like me to link it to you?

gmaxwell 2017-01-21 13:31:47

frib: you appeared to be asking inside the chain.

gmaxwell 2017-01-21 13:31:53

mryandao: PM me.

frib 2017-01-21 13:31:58

gmaxwell, and i still am

frib 2017-01-21 13:32:47

sorry *without payment chanels*

gmaxwell 2017-01-21 13:32:58

16:27 <@gmaxwell> It's like saying that USD could never be used for online payments because it is a piece of cloth and modems cannot transmit cloth.

nairb 2017-01-21 13:35:47

except bitcoin is sold as "be your own bank" and most of the bitcoin fanatics tell you bitcoin is no better than fiat currency if you don't control your private keys

nairb 2017-01-21 13:36:06

the model we're sold on with bitcoin isn't possible with widespread usage as a currency of any sort

gmaxwell 2017-01-21 13:36:34

You do control your own private keys with payment channels.

frib 2017-01-21 13:36:37

nairb, what do you mean by "The model we're sold on" ?

nairb 2017-01-21 13:36:38

widespread usage as a currency is only possible with organizations like coinbase performing the transactions, and they could have existed with fiat currency anyway

frib 2017-01-21 13:37:14

nairb, coinbase doesn't perform transactions that currency is normally used for

frib 2017-01-21 13:37:21

maybe you're thinking of services like bitpay?

gmaxwell 2017-01-21 13:37:29

nairb: not so. On either count; one payment channels don't need anything like coinbase, and two-- the threshold for banks should be much lower for bitcoin because it's possible to do things like multisignature security and provable solvency.

kanzure 2017-01-21 13:37:33

frib: perhaps you could provide a reference for the claims you're trying to get info on

nairb 2017-01-21 13:38:03

frib: coinbase has a merchant tool too, but yes like bitpay

frib 2017-01-21 13:39:38

kanzure, i am simply trying to understand why you said that "you are not going to get a million transactions/sec with any decentralized consensus protocol" -> what is the bottleneck?

noob 2017-01-21 13:39:50

Hello, i am ready to invest at mining. according to my calculations 0,065 euro/kw is normal for mining right?

kanzure 2017-01-21 13:40:23

frib: you can use payment channels if you want to send millions of transactions/sec as long as you don't need each and every transaction to appear in the blockchain

nairb 2017-01-21 13:40:25

gmaxwell: how would a payment channel support every one in the world holding their own bitcoin private keys and using them to buy coffee each morning at random coffee shops all over the world? I don't think payment channels allow for any where near orders of magnitude less than the scale that would be required for that.

gmaxwell 2017-01-21 13:40:50

nairb: why do you think that they do not?

frib 2017-01-21 13:40:57

kanzure, my question is why can it not be done on the main network, without payment channels

kanzure 2017-01-21 13:41:26

frib: you mean, you want to propagate all the millions of transactions on a flood network...?

frib 2017-01-21 13:41:35

i dont want to do anything

frib 2017-01-21 13:42:10

except get an answer to my question

frib 2017-01-21 13:42:24

i.e. i am only trying to learn, not propose

LBTCseeker 2017-01-21 13:42:27

anyone in northern germany who wants to do a cash / btc trade?

noob 2017-01-21 13:42:36

Hello, i am ready to invest at mining. according to my calculations 0,065 euro/kw is normal for mining right?

nairb 2017-01-21 13:42:44

gmaxwell: the description from the wiki is "class of techniques designed to allow users to make multiple Bitcoin transactions without commiting all of the transactions to the Bitcoin block chain.[1] In a typical payment channel, only two transactions are added to the block chain but an unlimited or nearly unlimted number of payments can be made between the participants." ... as far as I can tell it's a mechanism to allow multiple

nairb 2017-01-21 13:42:44

transactions between two specific parties with one on-blockchain transaction. even if I used one on-blockchain transaction per vendor and bought coffee at the same place every day, that's still an untenable total number of transactions. what am I missing?

LBTCseeker 2017-01-21 13:42:46

(LBTC is banned in my country so got to ask here)

TheButterZone 2017-01-21 13:42:46

LBTCseeker: /join #bitcoin-otc

kanzure 2017-01-21 13:42:48

frib: and we're trying to explain that payment channels provide you the capacity that you're asking for

TheButterZone 2017-01-21 13:42:58

noob: /join #bitcoin-mining

frib 2017-01-21 13:43:09

kanzure, and i am aware of that. my question is why is the main network unsuitable

gmaxwell 2017-01-21 13:43:33

nairb: oh no, payment channels can be transitive. meaing that if I have a channel with you, and you have a channel with kanzure, and I want to pay kanzure, I can atomically pay him via you.

kanzure 2017-01-21 13:44:28

frib: all bitcoin nodes must follow all the data. if you increase the size of that data beyond their ability to follow, then you are excluding people from using the bitcoin network. the satoshi model is very much "the node must see everything".