BrahRah 2017-01-11 22:53:00
I've created a small tut on how to protect against keylogging keyfile theft. Main reason being that digital currencies are getting a thing and having a way to protect your sensitive data is getting more important.
BrahRah 2017-01-11 22:53:02
https://paste.ee/r/mgHUJ
piqure 2017-01-11 22:53:04
^^^ WARNING: any URL may lead directly or indirectly to COIN-STEALING MALWARE! ^^^
BrahRah 2017-01-11 22:54:10
I've put my wallets in an encrypted file on a stick but using windows it never really felt safe
BrahRah 2017-01-11 22:54:39
so I kinda cape up with it with the help of the guys in ##security
BrahRah 2017-01-11 22:54:44
came
BrahRah 2017-01-11 22:55:08
Would be nice if I could get some feedback on it
BrahRah 2017-01-11 22:55:38
if you don't wanna read it via the paste I can post it in here
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:21:20
BrahRah: if you're willing to go to that lengths why not use a more secure OS?
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:21:49
BrahRah: btw, what is your use case? Do you want to have a bitcoin wallet for daily use? Or do you want to have a wallet for cold storage?
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:21:55
I'm trying to figure out a way that works even if a OS is compromised
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:22:27
it's not just about bitcoin
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:22:36
BrahRah: it depends on your use case. If you want to store your life savings you should have an offline machine, full stop.
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:22:41
it's storing sensitive data in general
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:22:59
like passwordmanager files
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:23:11
keyfiles, wallets etc.
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:23:32
but I still found a fatal mistake
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:24:15
if the raspi is connected to a compromised pc the data can still be stolen
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:25:16
BrahRah: if the machine used to access the private information is 0wned then you are SOL. Let's take as an example the password manager files: OK, they are stored on a secure machine, but you access them from an insecure one. Your insecure machine gets 0wned, you type the password to decrypt your password manager files, the information gets stolen - full
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:25:16
stop.
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:25:37
yes
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:25:49
BrahRah: if you have extremely sensitive information you don't need to access on a daily basis you NEED an always offline machine
TheButterZone 2017-01-11 23:26:19
apple II forever
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:26:22
but how can you transfer new data then
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:26:40
esp. when the data is recived via the www
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:27:08
BrahRah: in the case of Bitcoin you store your private keys offline, they NEVER touch an online machine. You generate unsigned transactions online, you take them offline, you sign them offline, you take the signed transaction online and you broadcast it.
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:27:48
the good thing with the raspi is that everything is created on a safe environment so passwords are pretty much safe if you never type them
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:28:41
well but waht if you need to use you btc
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:28:44
what
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:29:01
your
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:29:10
storeing them once seems safe
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:29:21
How do you move the unsigned transaction to the offline machine? The unsigned transaction is just an hex string, so you have multiple options. From USB to read-only media like a DVD or even a QR code. Or for the ultra paranoid, by hand :D
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:29:53
ic
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:30:04
BrahRah: if you need to use your BTC you do as I explained. You generate an unsigned transaction online (unsigned means that cannot be spent) and then you sign it offline.
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:30:07
but it's not practical
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:30:25
BrahRah: I do it all the day. It's more practical than it seems
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:30:37
via qr or by hand?
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:30:39
as an example, see http://docs.electrum.org/en/latest/coldstorage.html
piqure 2017-01-11 23:30:40
^^^ WARNING: any URL may lead directly or indirectly to COIN-STEALING MALWARE! ^^^
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:31:14
BrahRah: or via any kind of read-only media.
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:31:31
ok then that works for BTC
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:31:43
still doesn't fix my keyfile problem
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:32:00
BrahRah: https://www.privacy-cd.org/
piqure 2017-01-11 23:32:01
^^^ WARNING: any URL may lead directly or indirectly to COIN-STEALING MALWARE! ^^^
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:32:32
the last link is for an always offline Linux distro. That could work if you have super private information that cannot be stolen and that doesn't need to be accessed online
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:34:15
thx I'll take a look
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:34:56
BrahRah: the thing is that a keyfile needs to accessed regularly, many times per day. There's always a compromise between usability and security. For a passwords just use a good password manager with a very strong password. If you are super ultra paranoid don't use cloud storage to synch it.
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:35:52
yes I know about the password manager approach
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:36:23
if the keyfiles were 1GB not 1kb it woudn't be a problem
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:36:54
wouldn't
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:36:58
BrahRah: again it all depends on your use case.
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:37:09
true
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:37:52
if the pc is always offline and has 0 connection to the internet its safe with a 1kb file
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:38:26
but then you cant even transfer data to or from the offline pc
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:38:50
if the storage meda has ever been connected to pc with internet connection
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:38:59
media
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:40:21
if the key file on the other hand was 1GB big and changed regularly it getting stolen is almost impossible via the internet
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:41:45
taht kinda my problem with the dedicated offline pc
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:42:00
a raspi is pretty cheap and nice for cold storage
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:42:14
BrahRah: but again I don't understand your use case. What is the "key file"? A password manager vault?
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:42:57
key file as in a key to a protected file/partition
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:44:05
BrahRah: I understand, but depends on what kind of information you want to store, what you want to do with it and what is your threat model.
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:44:07
I store my wallets in a prtected file on a usb stick
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:44:19
protected
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:44:38
BrahRah: for the bitcoin use case we already discussed a solution
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:44:38
it's better than having them on the pc
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:44:49
for passwords we already discussed an approach
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:45:14
let's say any form of documents then
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:46:46
BrahRah: again depends. If you are working an a very sensitive set of documents that CANNOT be leaked and that you will have to transmit only once and, lets say, anonymously, you can do the following: work on the documents on an always offline machine with a read-only OS like Discreete Linux, storing the info on encrypted datachable media/partitions.
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:47:05
Once you decide to transmit the information, take it to Tails, send it, and that's it.
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:47:12
true
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:47:28
what about project files for a game
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:47:59
you create them on machine that is connected to the www
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:48:13
but store them on an encrypted drive
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:48:45
BrahRah: you could set up a compartimentalized OS like Qubes. You create a Virtual Machine whose ONLY purpose is to work on that project. You don't do email, you don't browse the web randomly - you ONLY work on the project. You do your other stuff in other VMs.
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:49:29
tried that
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:49:42
not all software works on a virtual os
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:49:53
had to drop it
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:50:03
setup was also way too hard
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:51:34
it's nice to have someone to talk about his
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:51:49
this
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:52:00
BrahRah: probably because its too resource intensive. For that use case probably the best way is to devote a workstation to your game. No emails, no random browsing. Just game development. If you need to download a game resource, you do that but just that, and then you keep working on your game. With that kind of good habits is very unlikely you will get
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:52:00
compromised.
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:53:09
BrahRah: compartmentalization is a strong security habit. And usually it's enough.
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:53:43
1 machine for internet browsing, one for storing btc
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:53:52
another one to work on
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:54:24
I kinda hoped I could have one to work on and one to store everything sesitve
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:54:26
+n
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:55:30
BrahRah: that's the principle. You can have a) offline machine for BTC and ultra sensitive stuff. b) a work and personal machine - but just use VM for personal stuff. You use an Debian based Linux distro like Ubuntu in a Virtual Machine for browsing, playing, etc.
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:56:52
the problem is transferring the sensitive data to the offline machine
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:57:07
that way you have your resource intensive and very specific work program on your main OS, where you work and ONLY work. And then you use a VM for porn and such things :) even if the VM is compromised it's very unlikely for the malware to jump to your host OS.
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:57:32
yea
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:57:49
but I don't have the hardware for a gpu passthrough
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:58:33
getting a new MB for 200
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:58:40
is a no brainer
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:58:58
and it costs 1k+ to switch to new hardware
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:58:58
BrahRah: we're walking in circles. The offline machine is for either Bitcoin or super sensitive data you don't constantly need to transfer online. If the sensitive info has to be constantly taken online then use a different setup, similar to the others we discussed.
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:59:34
yes I know I'm thinking
BrahRah 2017-01-11 23:59:50
what approach to take
trotski2000 2017-01-11 23:59:58
BrahRah: why do you need a gpu passthrough? We said you can use your resource intensive stuff on the host OS. No need for passthrough. VMs are for browsing and unsafe stuff.
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:00:27
the software I work with doesn't work on linux nor in a VM
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:00:58
so I need to use windows wich is easily com promised
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:01:02
+h
trotski2000 2017-01-12 00:01:04
BrahRah: then use it on the HOST. The host can be Windows. You do the personal stuff (browsing, etc.) on the VM.
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:01:51
yes but it being windows = compromised
trotski2000 2017-01-12 00:02:06
BrahRah: is usually compromised when you don't compartmentalize. If you use Windows for just ONE thing and you don't do emails, nor random browsing, nor random downloading stuff, it will not be compromised as easily
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:02:39
true
ratbanebo 2017-01-12 00:02:59
I call bullshit
ratbanebo 2017-01-12 00:03:02
leaks are leaks
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:03:31
still isn't a solution I like tough
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:03:37
though
ratbanebo 2017-01-12 00:03:38
no offense
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:04:03
lets say viruses specialize in stealing BTC in future
trotski2000 2017-01-12 00:04:23
ratbanebo: of course you can count on Windows "spying" on you. But then again he NEEDS to use Windows. And what is his threat model? Microsoft spying on him? A state-level actor? Or just a random trojan?
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:04:35
then I can't use one machine for both my worstuff and btc
ratbanebo 2017-01-12 00:04:36
if you have precious data to hide you use a sep medium and a sep net
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:04:48
btc needs it's own
trotski2000 2017-01-12 00:05:39
ratbanebo: sure, but then you don't regularly take that information online to your insecure net. We already discussed the air-gapped solution. But BrahRah needs to regularly access the "precious" data from his online, insecure Windows.
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:06:13
that's the problem
ratbanebo 2017-01-12 00:06:58
that's completely up to yourself tbh.
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:07:32
I've already gotten a lot of solutions
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:07:46
now I just have to figure out what I'll go with
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:07:57
thx for all the help
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:08:15
I need a break I'll think hard about everthing
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:08:27
then I'll post what I'll go with
trotski2000 2017-01-12 00:08:28
BrahRah: let's sum up. You NEED to use Windows. You NEED that Windows machine to be online. You NEED your sensitive data to be constantly available to that online Windows machine. The only sane solution you have is to use that Window machine to work with that sensitive information, and for that only. No emails. No browsing. No playing. No IRC. No nothing.
trotski2000 2017-01-12 00:08:28
Just work on that.
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:08:50
yes
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:09:01
but I'd need 2 seperate machines then
trotski2000 2017-01-12 00:09:50
BrahRah: that's for sure. An offline one for BTC and other sensitive info you don't need to have 24h access from the insecure Windows machine.
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:10:14
but even then I have to transfer data to that offline windows machine from the online machine
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:10:35
very inconvinient I did that for a while
trotski2000 2017-01-12 00:10:42
And probably a third one for personal online stuff. In any case I would settle with a Linux distro in Virtualbox running in the Windows host for my personal stuff.
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:10:45
my my notebookj
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:11:01
with
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:11:11
yea but then my main os would be windows
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:11:25
wich is connected cia lanacble
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:11:30
+a
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:11:44
and the linux distro would have the drivers?
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:11:52
doesn't sound secure to me
ratbanebo 2017-01-12 00:11:59
https://soundcloud.com/sorcerermusic/video-magic
piqure 2017-01-12 00:12:00
^^^ WARNING: any URL may lead directly or indirectly to COIN-STEALING MALWARE! ^^^
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:13:32
damn there just isn't a good solution
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:13:47
guess I'll just have to live with it
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:14:11
and hope I never get infected with something that steals my data
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:18:34
The problem I have is that the only way BTC is secure is using cold storage. If cyptocurrencies become the standard every tiny security hole in any os will be used to get to your stuff.
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:18:58
at least we have multisig
buZz 2017-01-12 00:24:08
BrahRah: welcome to the reality that being ignorant about computer security will cost you dearly
buZz 2017-01-12 00:24:39
imho using windows is 100% certainty of making yourself a victim & target
Lauda 2017-01-12 00:24:47
^nope
buZz 2017-01-12 00:25:27
yep
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:25:30
I agree
buZz 2017-01-12 00:25:36
as proven over & over & over & over & over
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:26:12
My problem is that I'm kinda forced to use windows
buZz 2017-01-12 00:26:23
thats nice
buZz 2017-01-12 00:26:27
so, your choice
Lauda 2017-01-12 00:26:38
If you know what you're doing the answer is no.
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:26:41
I dont have to use it for btc but I need it for work
Lauda 2017-01-12 00:26:52
<- XX years of windows usage, 0 times compromised.
buZz 2017-01-12 00:26:57
BrahRah: 'having a job' has nothing to do with 'wanting to store bitcoins'
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:27:03
I know
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:27:17
but it's just inconvienedt having a extra linux machine
buZz 2017-01-12 00:27:17
<- hasnt used windows more than 3 years without getting 30 euro an hour for it
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:27:22
inconvinient
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:27:31
but raspi is cheap so
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:27:36
it doable now
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:27:39
it's
buZz 2017-01-12 00:27:47
yeah 5 usd
Lauda 2017-01-12 00:28:00
30e/h? IT support detected :D
trotski2000 2017-01-12 00:28:07
BrahRah: again it all depends. If you are storing a life changing amount of money NOT having a dedicated, offline Linux machine is not "inconvenient", is just plainly stupid.
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:28:21
yes
buZz 2017-01-12 00:28:33
Lauda: its the markup over normal paycheck for being forced to use winnt/win32
Lauda 2017-01-12 00:28:49
Imagine running 5 nodes, having per a machine per each wallet and machines for doing escrow
Lauda 2017-01-12 00:28:53
Still not inconvenient.
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:29:08
but I'm also thinking about all the android windows user in 10 to 20 years that do not possess the knowledge to secure everything
buZz 2017-01-12 00:29:28
using cellphones is in no way secure
buZz 2017-01-12 00:29:30
whatsoever
Lauda 2017-01-12 00:29:35
Uh smartphones are horible.
buZz 2017-01-12 00:29:40
GSM == 100% hacked
buZz 2017-01-12 00:29:45
since forever
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:29:48
yea tell that to people that grow up with it and stick with it
buZz 2017-01-12 00:29:56
no
r3volt 2017-01-12 00:29:57
tell me
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:30:02
and are forced to use crypto in 10 to 20 years
buZz 2017-01-12 00:30:02
i'm not their teachers
norotartagen 2017-01-12 00:30:37
smartphones suck
buZz 2017-01-12 00:30:52
BrahRah: did you see the bithodl wallet? :)
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:30:58
if people loose their money gov has a reason to ban such currenys
buZz 2017-01-12 00:31:02
https://bithodl.com/
piqure 2017-01-12 00:31:03
^^^ WARNING: any URL may lead directly or indirectly to COIN-STEALING MALWARE! ^^^
Lauda 2017-01-12 00:31:04
That wallet is not the wisest decision.
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:31:09
currencys
Lauda 2017-01-12 00:31:12
BrahRah gov can't do anything
buZz 2017-01-12 00:31:13
i wouldnt trust it as-is, but its ideas are novel
Lauda 2017-01-12 00:31:16
besides cry in a dark corner
buZz 2017-01-12 00:31:36
just for lack of /ignorant
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:31:58
well crypto currenys would never get mainstream then
Lauda 2017-01-12 00:32:09
Someone explained on reddit why locking funds for long is a bad idea.
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:32:15
if too many ppl loose their money
buZz 2017-01-12 00:32:24
ppl will always loose money
buZz 2017-01-12 00:32:29
they're all dumb as fuck
buZz 2017-01-12 00:32:38
average IQ still is 100
buZz 2017-01-12 00:32:42
thats a dumb person
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:32:44
depends on if you spend it or it gets stolen
buZz 2017-01-12 00:33:00
doesnt matter
buZz 2017-01-12 00:33:08
they will spend too much on shit they dont need
buZz 2017-01-12 00:33:13
-and- get robbed
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:33:32
yea but I like cyptocurrencies
buZz 2017-01-12 00:33:49
then learn
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:34:19
learn what?
buZz 2017-01-12 00:35:01
learn to use them ;)
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:35:39
useing something is easy using something and knowing it is the hard part
buZz 2017-01-12 00:36:16
yeah without learning no person would have mental growth
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:36:35
still wont fix the problem I tried to talk about ealier
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:36:41
earlier
buZz 2017-01-12 00:36:47
i dno, which one?
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:37:04
you can't make dump people understand complicated stuff
buZz 2017-01-12 00:37:20
dumb*
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:37:20
the complicated stuff needs to be easy to handle
buZz 2017-01-12 00:37:31
BrahRah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvVPdyYeaQU
piqure 2017-01-12 00:37:32
^^^ WARNING: any URL may lead directly or indirectly to COIN-STEALING MALWARE! ^^^
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:37:34
for the dumb ppl
buZz 2017-01-12 00:37:45
BrahRah: you cannot protect people against their own stupidity
buZz 2017-01-12 00:37:56
people with fiat bank accounts get robbed daily
buZz 2017-01-12 00:38:09
just by clicking on emails , etc
norotartagen 2017-01-12 00:38:31
not so much with cors
norotartagen 2017-01-12 00:38:37
Kappa
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:38:38
and dumb people are always responsible for destroying something that has great potetial
buZz 2017-01-12 00:39:11
only if you listen to them
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:39:20
if btc isn't secure for dumb ppl it's gonna get ripped apart
buZz 2017-01-12 00:39:20
who tf cares about opinions of stupid ppl
buZz 2017-01-12 00:39:27
btc is supersecure
norotartagen 2017-01-12 00:39:35
yeah, dumb people ruin things
norotartagen 2017-01-12 00:39:38
it's pretty annoying
buZz 2017-01-12 00:39:39
but not in the hands of some people
r3volt 2017-01-12 00:39:42
btc is but the price isnt
buZz 2017-01-12 00:39:48
like guns are quite secure
norotartagen 2017-01-12 00:39:49
some people are so annoying
buZz 2017-01-12 00:39:54
but not in the hands of a person
buZz 2017-01-12 00:40:07
add person to a gun, better get away
buZz 2017-01-12 00:40:15
just a gun? nothing to fear
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:40:27
ok then how will btc protect you from getting thrown into jail for using it?
buZz 2017-01-12 00:40:48
BrahRah: thats not btc's role
norotartagen 2017-01-12 00:40:57
there is no such thing as jail imo
buZz 2017-01-12 00:41:02
BrahRah: its YOUR role to figure out plausible deniability
norotartagen 2017-01-12 00:41:20
but i'm white
norotartagen 2017-01-12 00:41:26
so who knows
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:41:51
or a way is found to make btc secure for dump ppl so they dont ruin it in the first place
buZz 2017-01-12 00:42:01
BrahRah: please learn to spell
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:42:07
sry
buZz 2017-01-12 00:42:08
dump is not the same as dumb
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:42:10
not native
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:42:15
I know
buZz 2017-01-12 00:42:15
noone is
buZz 2017-01-12 00:42:34
BrahRah: did you check out btchodl yet?
buZz 2017-01-12 00:42:39
https://bithodl.com/
piqure 2017-01-12 00:42:40
^^^ WARNING: any URL may lead directly or indirectly to COIN-STEALING MALWARE! ^^^
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:42:48
Ill do so now then
buZz 2017-01-12 00:42:53
BitHodl locks your BTC using pay-to-script hashes, making them impossible to spend before a specified date.
buZz 2017-01-12 00:43:11
so even if stolen or robbed, the money would not be spendable
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:43:22
lol btc phishing site?
r3volt 2017-01-12 00:43:28
hahahh
buZz 2017-01-12 00:43:45
maybe you should try to listen
buZz 2017-01-12 00:43:56
12:31:12 < buZz> i wouldnt trust it as-is, but its ideas are novel
BrahRah 2017-01-12 00:44:27
so I can trust you a random guy on irc that that site is safe yea sure
